Member of Parliament for South Shields
Interviews
Foreign Policy And The Importance Of Pakistan
BBC Today Programme
27th July 2007
Evan Davis: David Miliband has been Foreign Secretary for almost exactly a month. In that time most of the foreign policy scrutiny has been on the relationship with the United States but it's conspicuous that his first big trip outside of Europe has been the one he's now returning from to Afghanistan and Pakistan. It reflects the sense of nervousness about that region. There have been warnings that we might have to stay in Afghanistan for decades and in Pakistan the West's ally President Musharraf is in a constant struggle for authority.
Well I spoke to the Foreign Secretary who was in Islamabad yesterday afternoon and first I put it to him that President Musharraf faces a dilemma of losing support in Pakistan by helping the West's battle against terrorism.
David Miliband: I don't accept that that's the choice because Pakistani citizens in Pakistan want to see terrorism tackled and extremism tackled and remember Pakistani visitors to the UK could easily find themselves caught up in terrorist incidents as well because the people why try to plant bombs in the UK don't discriminate between the race or the religion of the people they affect. So I think it's important to give the message back that I've just come from a meeting of the Pakistani Youth Parliament, there was no question there among the people there that they want to see what they call 'enlightened moderation' that they want to see extremism tackled. There are different views about the way, ways to do it among the, the students and the, the young people. But I think that we shouldn't fall for the trap of thinking that there's a choice for countries like Pakistan between looking West to us or looking to their own people.
ED: But you must worry that his position in Pakistan becomes precarious after the Red Mosque episode. The Taliban supporting or Taliban leaning Pakistanis' positions are strengthened by that aren't they and...
DM: Well, I think the opposite Evan. I think that the extremist forces here have been set back by the way in which the mosque, the Red, the so called Red Mosque episode was tackled and I think that there is a strong sense here that extremism, terrorism inspired by Al Qaeda is a threat to this country as well as a threat to our country.
ED: What would you like Pakistan to offer us? How can they assist us with the counter terror effort?
DM: We've got very strong shared interests first in the Pakistani work on the border area because the Afghan Pakistan border is absolutely critical. I spent two days in Afghanistan, one in Kabul and one day down in the South where we've got aid workers, diplomats and military forces trying to create an economic and social and (indistinct) security future with the Afghan Government and obviously the much vaunted Taliban spring offensive has not been able to materialise because of the brave work of our forces there. But there is the danger that they retreat in to the border areas that's why co-operation across the Afghan Pakistan border is so important. So that's very important. Obviously the work in tackling terrorism that's linked to the UK is very important as well.
ED: Another issue I suppose in that area is the Americans might lose patience with President Musharraf before the British do. There's been talk of Americans taking some military, unilateral military, action in corners of Pakistan if the need arises. If that need did arise what would Britain be inclined to do, support the Americans or, if you like, support Musharraf who might have to take a stand against American action in Pakistan?
DM: Well I think the State Department have denied the attribution or the inflection that was given to their statements but we're very clear it's right that we work with the Government of Pakistan. That's what we're trying to do and that's what we're trying to, to do right across the economic and social and security fields.
ED: And you're with Musharraf on that, essentially he is our man in Pakistan?
DM: We're determined to build bilateral and multilateral relations with them because it's in our interest as a country but it's also in the interests of the region and it's very important.
ED: Okay well let's talk about Afghanistan a little. As you say that was the first non European visit you made as Foreign Secretary. We have a war on drugs, we have a war on terror both of them highly relevant to Afghanistan where a vast amount of the world poppy seeds come from. Is there sometimes a conflict of interest in those two because my understanding is that sometimes the war on drugs, the attempt to drive out the poppy seeds alienates the population in Afghanistan and makes it harder to win support for the war on terror?
DM: Actually I think that the battle on both those fronts goes together and for the Afghan farmers who are trying to make the calculation, am I better off going legal with the Government of Afghanistan or am I better off backing the Taliban, it's very, very important and (indistinct) growing poppy. It's very important that we are there making sure that the incentives are right for them, the enforcement incentives through the Afghan Army and its Police force but also the economic incentives. And so to that extent I think the work that we're trying to do for security and on drug control fit together.
ED: I mean you're denying that there's a dilemma, if you like, between the drug fight and the terror fight but it is actually quite seriously alienating some people in Afghanistan isn't it? It's worse than you're describing it ...
DM: Well I'm not ...
ED: People whose only contact with the Afghanistan Government, the Government we're supporting is when their men come and mow down their only source of income.
DM: Well that if I may say so is a bit of a caricature of what's happening. Actually the attack is often that there's not enough eradication going on rather than that there's too much and I think I have got to be very careful not to do a rah rah for what's going on in Afghanistan. It's difficult, it's dangerous and I don't do a rah rah, there's no point in pretending otherwise. Equally though it's important that from a distance we don't fall in to a fatalism that says these people would prefer to grow poppy, they'd prefer to live under the Taliban it's all lost because I was only there for forty eight hours so it's wrong for me to pretend I'm the world expert after forty eight hours. But I did talk to Provincial Council, elected Provincial Council in Helmand Province. They don't want to go back to 2001 when women couldn't go to school. There were three women councillors out of the seven that I met and they were absolutely clear that good government is basic for them and it means moving forward from the Taliban not moving backward and it's the Taliban who are driving the drug, who are pushing the drugs not the international forces or our forces.
ED: Are you more interested in soft power than the previous administration? Are you talking about climate change with President Musharraf, you're talking about economic development in Afghanistan is that, is that a change in our foreign policy I'm detecting?
DM: Well it's funny that you should say that because I think that the last Prime Minister, one of his last speeches was to say we need soft power and we need hard power and they reinforce each other and I think that's right really, that there are different kinds of soft power, so called soft power, aid budgets, diplomacy and there are different kinds of hard power. I mean it's pretty hard when you wield a vote in the (indistinct) UN Security Council, it's pretty hard when you impose economic sanctions and it's pretty hard when you deploy military forces. Those are all examples of hard power and I think the interesting thing about British foreign policy at the moment is that we have the opportunity to combine those different types of power, the International Development Department, the Defence Department and the Foreign Office, three Secretaries of State, three departments determined to work together so that we use the levers of power that are available to us in an appropriate way.
ED: Foreign Secretary, thank you very much indeed.