Member of Parliament for South Shields

Interviews

European Reform Treaty

BBC Today Programme
5th March 2008

James Naughtie: The Commons will decide today whether or not there will be a referendum on the European Reform Treaty, the Lisbon Treaty. Government says it's not necessary because the Treaty is no longer a constitution on which a referendum would have been justified. The Conservatives say it is a constitution in all but name and that there should be a national vote. The Liberal Democrats, who could put the Government in real peril if they joined the Tories in the voting lobbies, are abstaining though there may be some rebels. We heard from their Leader, Nick Clegg, earlier in the programme and he reaffirmed the abstention pledge.

So let's hear the argument. The Foreign Secretary David Miliband is in the radio car. The Conservative's Foreign Affairs Spokesman William Hague is at Westminster.

Good morning to you both.

David Miliband: Good morning.

William Hague: Good morning.

James Naughtie: Mr Hague what is it that convinces you that despite the changes made to this Treaty it is still a constitution in all but name?

William Hague: Well every Government in Europe other than the British Government maintains that the substance of the constitution is still there. Chancellor Angela Merkel said the fundamentals of the constitution have been maintained and indeed when you look at it ninety per cent of the content is still the same: the new EU President, the new EU Foreign Minister, albeit renamed a High Representative, the, the loss of more than fifty national vetoes. We could go on with a long list of these things. And I asked the Government, I asked the Foreign Secretary last autumn to publish a comparative table, a comparative analysis, clause by clause of the constitution and the Treaty. Significantly they were not willing to do so.

James Naughtie: David Miliband why if Angela Merkel for one says that the fundamentals are the same do you insist that the constitution has been abandoned?

David Miliband: Well I oppose a referendum on this Treaty for the same reason that William Hague voted against a referendum on the Maastricht Treaty in 1992, which is that neither of these Treaties exercise a fundamental shift in the balance of power between the nation state and the European Union. And as for Angela Merkel, she along with every other European Head of Government announced last June that the constitution had been, in her words, "abandoned", the words of every single European Head of State. Why did they say that? Because voters in France and the Netherlands rejected the pre, previous constitution and ...

James Naughtie: Mr Hague, if it hasn't been abandoned why did they say that it had?

William Hague: Well of course it suits people promoting the constitution to say it's no longer a constitution but it is ...

James Naughtie: But by your argument they don't need to make that case in Europe because they're not fighting the same kind of battle as the Government is here.

William Hague: No but of course they, they will want to help those Governments that have difficulty with the concept, as here in Britain. But the important thing of course is what is in the thing and ninety per cent of the content is absolutely the same. Many of the articles actually transpose ...

James Naughtie: Well give us an example of one thing which changes the relationship between the nation state and the EU so that we can discuss a specific.

William Hague: Well fifty vetoes are lost. For instance where we now have a unanimity requirement in fifty of those areas we move to qualified majority voting ...

James Naughtie: Okay. David Miliband.

William Hague: ... and, and let me just add one thing to that.

James Naughtie: Right.

William Hague: Very significantly what we were debating in the Commons last night, the power is taken in this Treaty to abolish all remaining vetoes other than in defence without any recourse to any further Treaty ...

James Naughtie: Right.

William Hague: ... and that is something quite different ...

James Naughtie: Right.

William Hague: ... on a scale quite different from anything we've seen before.

James Naughtie: David Miliband.

David Miliband: I think that this exposes exactly the argument there isn't a fundamental shift in the balance of power. William Hague talks about fifty one vetoes. Sixteen of them don't apply to the United Kingdom because we're not members of the Economic and Monetary Union and because we have our own opt in on Justice and Home Affairs. Another fifteen or so of them are purely technical matters to do with the pension rights and the appointments of various committees. Twenty of them are actually in the British national interest in areas where William Hague wants to see more action. Let me give you examples: in development assistance, for example, and disaster aid relief, or in terms of reg, some of the energy deregulation. These are areas where actually it's in the British national interest and it's absolutely clear that on any reckoning there are fewer changes in qualified majority voting in this Treaty than were in the Single European Act or in the Maastricht Treaty.

So I think that this exactly exposes the core of the argument which is that we are a Parliamentary democracy and only in circumstances where there is a fundamental shift in the balance of power, for example if we wanted to join the, the euro, then we should go back to the people. Otherwise we have our own Parliament. People make their choices at General Elections and there simply can not be stood up the argument that there's a shift in the balance of power.

As for the second example that William Hague gave there is a triple lock on all of the changes that he alleges are going to be smuggled in by the back door. Every Government has to agree them, including our own, so we have a veto. Every Parliament has to agree them so our own Parliament for the first time has a veto on change. And in addition the European Parliament has to play a role. And the truth is that the isolation of the Tories is not just on the issue of whether or not there should be a referendum, 'cause as I say every Government around Europe has oppose, has said that the constitution has been abandoned. The real issue is that they oppose the Lisbon Treaty itself even though it means more voting weight in the European Council of Ministers for Britain, even though it cuts the size of the Commission whose bureaucracy is always being attacked and even though in important areas of foreign affairs it actually streamlines the delivery of foreign affairs' policy that is decided by member states.

James Naughtie: William Hague.

William Hague: Well, yes, let me come back on that because first of all large parts of this Treaty were opposed by the Government itself, as David Miliband knows. He often tries to portray the Conservative Party as being alone in, against it but many of the foreign policy provisions in it were opposed by his predecessor Margaret Beckett until the final few days of the negotiations on the Treaty. Now David argues that the loss of vetoes, that the twenty particular vetoes he mentions are in the national interest and I say they are not. But of course ...

James Naughtie: All of them?

William Hague: ... the issue today, the issue, yes, the issue today however is something different. It is should the people be able to decide about that? And while he says that none of us argued at the time of Maastricht for a referendum no political party in the 1992 General Election said it would hold a referendum on the Maastricht Treaty. Every political party in the 2005 election said it would hold a referendum on what is essentially this Treaty so it's going to be on ...

James Naughtie: But are you, are you making the point ...

William Hague: ... Europe ...

James Naughtie: ... well are you making the point that the commitment to the referendum on Maastricht would have come from a pledge in a manifesto and not from the content of the Treaty itself?

William Hague: Absolutely because what we are dealing with ...

James Naughtie: Well ...

William Hague: ... here is something that goes wider than Europe. It is an issue of trust in politics. What are we going to say to all those people? We as Members of Parliament go around and say you must vote, politics matter, elections count, and in future we will have to explain that an entire House of Commons elected with a commitment to a referendum decided by a majority that it would not have that referendum ...

James Naughtie: If ...

William Hague: ... because the majority thought it would not win and it could get away with it ...

James Naughtie: In practical terms Foreign Secretary isn't that a problem to you?

David Miliband: Hang on William, hang on there ... let, let me just come back on this ...

James Naughtie: Yeah.

David Miliband: ... because William Hague has said something that is absolutely extraordinary, which is that the content of a Treaty that Parliament is discussing has no impact on whether or not there should be a referendum ...

William Hague: I'm saying the content of an election manifesto is (indistinct) that, yeah ...

David Miliband: ... and that is very, that is, no hang on, it's just ...

Don't, don't interrupt because you have said something that I think is very, very unwise. You've just said that the content of the Treaty has no impact on whether it should be in a manifesto. So for example if there wasn't a manifesto commitment to have a referendum on the euro but a Government decided that it should enter the euro it wouldn't be bound to go to the people. I say it's the content of the Treaty that matters and with, so in the case of, that I've just given if a Government suddenly decided that it didn't want to join the euro it would be bound to consult the people by virtue of the nature of the fundamental constitutional change that it involves. And I really think that on reflection William Hague will realise that it's absurd to turn over hundreds of years of precedent where our Parliament is the place where we decide these issues. How many people have come on this programme saying they want Parliament to play a bigger role in national life? Here is a chance for Parliament to do its job in a competitive way as you see from all of the debate about this vote today and then for, for General Elections this is to decide the nature of the Government. It must be the case that it's on fundamental issues of principle whether people are consulted.

James Naughtie: William Hague.

William Hague: Well the, the overriding issue of principle here is that a referendum was promised (indistinct) ...

David Miliband On a constitution which has been abandoned.

William Hague: ... that, that, which has not been abandoned and a family solicitor who told people that a document had been abandoned when ninety per cent of its content was the same would be drummed out of his job.

David Miliband: Hang on. Twenty seven Heads of Government have got ...

William Hague: The hundreds, the hundreds of years, well look at the Heads of Government. Bertie Ahern says thankfully they haven't changed the substance. Ninety per cent of it is still there. The Spanish Prime Minister said a great part of the content of the constitution is captured in the new Treaty. This is what the Heads of Government have said.

David Miliband: But I can trade you quotes, as we've shown, because you started by alleging that Angela Merkel, the Head of Germany, said it was the same as a constitution and I've shown she said it's abandoned ...

William Hague: Well I read out what she actually said.

David Miliband ... well hang on, hang on. Well I've said that she said it was abandoned. I can give you back the Conservative Dutch Prime Minister. So let's look at the content. It is important. The pre, let's just, let me just ...

James Naughtie: We've heard quotes from both sides. Yes. Move on, finally.

David Miliband: ... the, the Constitutional Treaty abolished all previous Treaties of the European Union. It did something that was legally unprecedented. This Treaty, it was rejected by the voters, this Treaty says we should not abolish all previous Treaties of the European Union. Instead we should amend the institutions of the European Union. That seems to me to be something. The Parliament was created to scrutinise and then to decide on it ...

William Hague: And look at what has happened and Parliamentary Committees, Cross Party Committees with a Labour majority have examined this question: the Foreign Affairs' Committee, the European Scrutiny Committee. The European (indistinct), Scrutiny Committee concluded that the Treaty, the Lisbon Treaty, was substantially equivalent to the constitution and that efforts to portray it as otherwise were likely to be misleading.

David Miliband: I, I have to come in on that (indistinct) ...

James Naughtie: People, very quickly, Foreign Secretary.

William Hague: That is a Labour majority for (indistinct) ...

David Miliband: ... let me come in on that. Because that's a very ...

James Naughtie: Very quickly, Foreign Secretary.

David Miliband: ... William Hague has read half of the sentence. What the, yes, he said the European Scrutiny Committee said was that for those countries that didn't have the protocols that Britain has negotiated in respect for example of Justice and Home Affairs there were significant similarities. So let's be absolutely clear what, about what Parliamentary Committees have said. In ab, in key areas of structure, in key areas of content and of course in consequence as well the, the Reform Treaty has significant differences from the Constitutional Treaty and those are important in our discussion ...

James Naughtie: Right.

David Miliband: ... but the fundamental issue is does it constitute a fundamental shift in the balance of power in which case the people should be consulted or is it in fact a job for MPs? And I believe as an amending Treaty it's a job for MPs

James Naughtie: Can I just ask you, Foreign Secretary, one last question. Isn't the politics of this clear and it is the case that you as a Government are pretty well losing the argument on, on Europe because you know that if there were a referendum it is almost certain by every measure of opinion that we've got that you'd lose it?

David Miliband: Well I'm sorry that you've given William Hague a points' victory in the last ten minutes ...

James Naughtie: I haven't given (indistinct) a points' victory ...

David Miliband: ... discussion. I'm sorry that you (indistinct) ...

James Naughtie: ... I'm asking you a rather fundamental question ...

David Miliband: ... I would, I would ...

James Naughtie: ... because you're the Government.

David Miliband: ... I would, I would dispute, I would dispute that. No I don't accept that proposition. I think that there is an important principle here which is what's the job of Parliament? And the job of Parliament must be to scrutinise legislation and then decide whether or not to pass it. In exceptional cases where there's a fundamental shift in the balance of power then of course a referendum should be held and the scrutiny should be intense, the scrutiny should be serious. But in the end this is what we pay MPs to do.

James Naughtie Foreign Secretary, William Hague, thank you both very much.